[MassHistPres] MassHistPres Digest, Vol 46, Issue 12
jahillsr at comcast.net
jahillsr at comcast.net
Mon Dec 7 15:50:56 EST 2009
Lyn. Should we consider placing all the churches in a LHD to protect them? Problem is they have to go in front of the District if they want to paint etc... . <Jim
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: masshistpres-request at cs.umb.edu
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 15:30:59
To: <masshistpres at cs.umb.edu>
Subject: MassHistPres Digest, Vol 46, Issue 12
Send MassHistPres mailing list submissions to
masshistpres at cs.umb.edu
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://mailman.cs.umb.edu/mailman/listinfo/masshistpres
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
masshistpres-request at cs.umb.edu
You can reach the person managing the list at
masshistpres-owner at cs.umb.edu
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of MassHistPres digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Churches in LHDs (slater at alum.rpi.edu)
2. Re: Fw: Linkedin (ElsaFitzgerald at aol.com)
3. Re: church steeples (Marcia Starkey)
4. Re: church steeples (Tristram Metcalfe 3)
5. Re: Fw: Linkedin (Ellen St. Sure)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 09:05:22 -0800
From: <slater at alum.rpi.edu>
Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] Churches in LHDs
To: <masshistpres at cs.umb.edu>
Message-ID: <1314001ca775f$764bad70$116a010a at mail2world.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
We are not attempting to interfere with the Diocese's decision-making
process. We are only trying to prevent these buildings from being
ultimately demolished. We have 2 churches in the process, one is across
from a Walgreens at a busy intersection -- prime location for a CVS. The
other is in an area also desirable for commercial development.
We lost a church last year in Springfield to a small commercial
development. The church, St. Joseph's, was on the National Register, but
was not in a local historic district, so since the development was
private, nothing could be done.
I'm looking to cite some paramount case that ruled that it is not a
violation of church/state separation to include a church in a LHD.
Thanks,
Ralph
<-----Original Message----->Mary Immaculate of Lourdes Church was
orginally
>placed in the Newton Upper Falls Historic District more than 30 years
ago. The
>district was established in accordance with Chapter 40 C of the
Massachusetts
>General Laws. Mary Immaculate of Lourdes was designated for closing in
the
>first round of recent parish closings by the Archdiocese of Boston.
Another
>Parish, St.Philip Neri, that was a spin off of Mary Immaculate seventy
years
>before, had been expected to close. It was spared. After months of
respectful
>but impassioned advocacy by the people of Mary Immaculate, many of them
the
>descendents of those who had built it in 1910, the Archdiocese changed
its
>mind. At a meeting at St. Philip Neri, the Archdiocese spokesman
announced that
>Philip Neri would be closed as an English speaking parish and left
temporarily
>in the hands of the Korean Catholic Community of Boston, who had been
sharing it
>with the English speaking Congregation. They were given one year of
>discernment and are still there four years later.
>
>When one of the die-hard Philip Neri asked why the decision had been
reversed,
>he explained that the Archdiocese had determined that the location of
Mary
>Immaculate in the Upper Falls Historic District would severely restrict
the
>changes that could be made to its exterior appearance (certainly
including
>demolition) without the permission of the Historic District Commission
which
>clearly would reject any significant changes. As a result, the building
could
>not easily be sold off. This is a clearly relevant precedent for the
>Springfield parish although the long term placement in the District was
clearly
>a more advantageous position
>for the MIOL parishionners. The fact that we had pointed out the
historic
>district status (and beauty) of the building for years before they
acknowledged
>it was a bittersweet irony. As that noted theologian Homer Simpson
often
>remarked, "D'oh!"
>
>It should also be noted that St. Bernard's church in West Newton was
proposed
>for closing. We amended the city's Landmark Ordinance so that St.
Bernard's
>could be landmarked as a property eligible for the National Register;
the owner
>was clearly going to reject its listing. Subsequently the church was
spared and
>put in a two church parish with an adjacent parish
>
>
>Alderman Brian Yates, Newton Mass.,,(BYates at newtonma.gov; e-mail;
>website BrianYates.org)
>
>Historic Preservation Chair, Committee to Save Mary Immaculate of
Lourdes Parish
>
>
>On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 11:12 AM, <slater at alum.rpi.edu> wrote:
>
>I have to imagine that the inclusion of a church in a historic district
is
>well-settled law, since I know of so many churches which are in
historic
>districts. Can someone point me to a prominent case which I can cite?
>
>In Springfield, the Roman Catholic Diocese is trying to advance an
argument that
>including one of its church in a historic district is a violation of
the
>separation of church and state.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Ralph Slate
>Springfield, MA
>
>******************************
>For administrative questions regarding this list, please contact
>Christopher.Skelly at state.ma.us directly. PLEASE DO NOT "REPLY" TO THE
WHOLE LIST.
>MassHistPres mailing list
>MassHistPres at cs.umb.edu
>http://mailman.cs.umb.edu/mailman/listinfo/masshistpres
>********************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.cs.umb.edu/mailman/private/masshistpres/attachments/20091207/811a31ac/attachment-0001.htm>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 13:22:37 EST
From: ElsaFitzgerald at aol.com
Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] Fw: Linkedin
To: designer1446 at comcast.net, masshistpres at cs.umb.edu
Message-ID: <d1f.522c0fae.384ea1ed at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In a message dated 11/30/2009 2:49:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
designer1446 at comcast.net writes:
----- Original Message -----
From: _Ann Chapdelaine_ (mailto:designer1446 at comcast.net)
To: _masshistpres-request at cs.umb.edu_
(mailto:masshistpres-request at cs.umb.edu)
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 2:46 PM
Subject: Linkedin
We have a lot of professional resources within those who use the
masshistpres site. Is it possible to have a MassHistPres Linked In Group so we can
find each other when looking for a particular expertise or service?
Ann J. Chapdelaine, Chairperson
Town of North Attleborough Historical Commission
and owner Interiors For Living
(http://www.interiorsforliving.biz/)
Ann,
How about the Preservation Massachusetts Consultants Directory at
_www.preservationmass.org_ (http://www.preservationmass.org) ?
Elsa N. Fitzgerald
Special Projects Manager
Preservation Massachusetts
45 School Street
Boston, MA 02108
978-979-9707
elsafitzgerald at aol.com
_www.preservationmass.org_ (http://www.preservationmass.org/)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.cs.umb.edu/mailman/private/masshistpres/attachments/20091207/3a44a7f1/attachment-0001.htm>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 12:00:26 -0500
From: "Marcia Starkey" <mdstarkey at crocker.com>
Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] church steeples
To: "Chris Walsh" <arcwalsh at rcn.com>, <masshistpres at cs.umb.edu>
Message-ID: <9D9B3D02748F481CA4D7B5A75206D735 at Marcia>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Perhaps another compelling argument is that we all know the constituents of
fiberglass. That may encourage these companies to find alternatives such as
those mentioned here.
Marcia Starkey, Chair
Greenfield Historical Commission
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Walsh" <arcwalsh at rcn.com>
To: <masshistpres at cs.umb.edu>
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] church steeples
>I have to pipe in on this issue because I don't believe that the "you
> can't tell the difference " argument holds any water here - its what I
> might call the "brickmaster" approach - Some 30 years ago my cousins
> from LA came to Boston to visit and wanted to go on the freedom trail-
> I went with them as an architectural guide... when we got to the old
> north church they didn't want to go in saying "we don't need to see it
> we have an exact copy at Forest Lawn Cemetery back home" - ARRRGGGH !
> I say real is real .. fake is fake and I can't understand why anyone
> champion fake over real - I personally love to see how things were put
> together, the craftsmanship on even the most mundane things ( how many
> of us could cut consistent straight line slats like that using hand
> tools). There is obviously a reason that the cell companies want
> fiberglass- less interference i suppose - but that SHOULD take a back
> seat to preserving the REAL for future generations to see and touch- I
> mean we're not talking Disneyland here -I really don't think any one
> would suggest replacing the Old North Church with a stick built replica
> with Brickmaster siding on the basis that from a distance "no one can
> tell the difference!"
> Chris Walsh, AIA
> Chairman Framingham Historical Commission
>
> james howard wrote:
>> Betty, Here in Wenham in the First Congregational Church they have
>> installed a cell antenna in the bell tower portion of the church. On
>> the sides the bell tower there were black wooden louvers. These were
>> replaced with black fiberglass louvers that look from the street
>> exactly like the wooden ones. The Wenham Historic District Commission
>> asked for and received samples of the fiberglass louvers before
>> approving them.
>>
>> The same church is negoiciating with another cell phone company to put
>> another cell antenna in the conical portion of the steeple above the
>> bell tower. They propose to replace the entire conical top portion of
>> the steeple with a fiberglass replica. The Historic District
>> Commission has not yet received a formal application for this
>> fiberglass replica but we have been talking with them and they have
>> sent us samples of the fiberglass. We have looked at some steeples
>> that are fiberglass and we cannot tell the difference. I expect a
>> formal application after the first of the year.
>>
>> Jim Howard
>> Chair
>> Wenham Historic District Commission
>>
> ******************************
> For administrative questions regarding this list, please contact
> Christopher.Skelly at state.ma.us directly. PLEASE DO NOT "REPLY" TO THE
> WHOLE LIST.
> MassHistPres mailing list
> MassHistPres at cs.umb.edu
> http://mailman.cs.umb.edu/mailman/listinfo/masshistpres
> ********************************
>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:09:37 -0500
From: Tristram Metcalfe 3 <twm3 at rcn.com>
Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] church steeples
To: "Marcia Starkey" <mdstarkey at crocker.com>
Cc: masshistpres at cs.umb.edu
Message-ID: <C4E2127F-0C67-4DCC-8E90-B8D9DDB45C1E at rcn.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
This issue of restoration materials might be more of a slippery slope
issue than it is substance since very little preservation can be 100%
identical to the past in tools used as well as all materials with
their processing.
The effort to be as close to 100% needs the maximum effort when it's
a hands-on up-close restoration.
When it comes to a wood vs composite louver way up beyond any close
scrutiny the important preservation specification is to require
"Identical detail proportions" and lessen the concern for what is
underneath the paint way beyond any ability to even tell that
difference, because it could jeopardize the preservation of
everything else.
I more than just louvers, an entire rebuild needs very accurate as
built drawings using wood profiles from actual wood and approval
should ONLY happen after they built the copy and it can be proven
that it IS identical. Mistakes and outright misdirection will more
than likely occur without total control.
Tris Metcalfe
Northampton
On Dec 6, 2009, at 12:00 PM, Marcia Starkey wrote:
> Perhaps another compelling argument is that we all know the
> constituents of fiberglass. That may encourage these companies to
> find alternatives such as those mentioned here.
> Marcia Starkey, Chair
> Greenfield Historical Commission
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Walsh" <arcwalsh at rcn.com>
> To: <masshistpres at cs.umb.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 12:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] church steeples
>
>
>> I have to pipe in on this issue because I don't believe that the "you
>> can't tell the difference " argument holds any water here - its
>> what I
>> might call the "brickmaster" approach - Some 30 years ago my
>> cousins
>> from LA came to Boston to visit and wanted to go on the freedom
>> trail-
>> I went with them as an architectural guide... when we got to the old
>> north church they didn't want to go in saying "we don't need to
>> see it
>> we have an exact copy at Forest Lawn Cemetery back home" - ARRRGGGH !
>> I say real is real .. fake is fake and I can't understand why anyone
>> champion fake over real - I personally love to see how things
>> were put
>> together, the craftsmanship on even the most mundane things ( how
>> many
>> of us could cut consistent straight line slats like that using hand
>> tools). There is obviously a reason that the cell companies want
>> fiberglass- less interference i suppose - but that SHOULD take a back
>> seat to preserving the REAL for future generations to see and
>> touch- I
>> mean we're not talking Disneyland here -I really don't think any one
>> would suggest replacing the Old North Church with a stick built
>> replica
>> with Brickmaster siding on the basis that from a distance "no one
>> can
>> tell the difference!"
>> Chris Walsh, AIA
>> Chairman Framingham Historical Commission
>>
>> james howard wrote:
>>> Betty, Here in Wenham in the First Congregational Church they have
>>> installed a cell antenna in the bell tower portion of the
>>> church. On
>>> the sides the bell tower there were black wooden louvers. These
>>> were
>>> replaced with black fiberglass louvers that look from the street
>>> exactly like the wooden ones. The Wenham Historic District
>>> Commission
>>> asked for and received samples of the fiberglass louvers before
>>> approving them.
>>>
>>> The same church is negoiciating with another cell phone company
>>> to put
>>> another cell antenna in the conical portion of the steeple above the
>>> bell tower. They propose to replace the entire conical top
>>> portion of
>>> the steeple with a fiberglass replica. The Historic District
>>> Commission has not yet received a formal application for this
>>> fiberglass replica but we have been talking with them and they have
>>> sent us samples of the fiberglass. We have looked at some steeples
>>> that are fiberglass and we cannot tell the difference. I expect a
>>> formal application after the first of the year.
>>>
>>> Jim Howard
>>> Chair
>>> Wenham Historic District Commission
>>>
>> ******************************
>> For administrative questions regarding this list, please contact
>> Christopher.Skelly at state.ma.us directly. PLEASE DO NOT "REPLY" TO
>> THE WHOLE LIST.
>> MassHistPres mailing list
>> MassHistPres at cs.umb.edu
>> http://mailman.cs.umb.edu/mailman/listinfo/masshistpres
>> ********************************
>
> ******************************
> For administrative questions regarding this list, please contact
> Christopher.Skelly at state.ma.us directly. PLEASE DO NOT "REPLY" TO
> THE WHOLE LIST.
> MassHistPres mailing list
> MassHistPres at cs.umb.edu
> http://mailman.cs.umb.edu/mailman/listinfo/masshistpres
> ********************************
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:30:48 -0500
From: "Ellen St. Sure" <estsure at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] Fw: Linkedin
To: ElsaFitzgerald at aol.com
Cc: masshistpres at cs.umb.edu, designer1446 at comcast.net
Message-ID: <A9C916BA-0109-474D-A29B-B6247C6CC288 at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed";
DelSp="yes"
The Preservation Mass Consultants Directory lists creditialled
professionals but I suspect that many on our MassHistPres mailing
list have a great deal of "particular expertise" but are not
credentialled and are not, most likely, looking for payment for
sharing their knowledge with others in this group. I, for one,
would very much like to see self-descriptions of the relevant
"particular expertise(s)" of people in this always-interesting
historical discussion group.
Ellen St. Sure
chair, Brewster Historical Commission and Town Archivist
On Dec 7, 2009, at 1:22 PM, ElsaFitzgerald at aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 11/30/2009 2:49:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> designer1446 at comcast.net writes:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ann Chapdelaine
> To: masshistpres-request at cs.umb.edu
> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 2:46 PM
> Subject: Linkedin
>
> We have a lot of professional resources within those who use the
> masshistpres site. Is it possible to have a MassHistPres Linked In
> Group so we can find each other when looking for a particular
> expertise or service?
>
> Ann J. Chapdelaine, Chairperson
> Town of North Attleborough Historical Commission
> and owner Interiors For Living
>
>
>
> Ann,
>
> How about the Preservation Massachusetts Consultants Directory at
> www.preservationmass.org?
>
>
>
> Elsa N. Fitzgerald
> Special Projects Manager
> Preservation Massachusetts
> 45 School Street
> Boston, MA 02108
> 978-979-9707
> elsafitzgerald at aol.com
>
> www.preservationmass.org
> ******************************
> For administrative questions regarding this list, please contact
> Christopher.Skelly at state.ma.us directly. PLEASE DO NOT "REPLY" TO
> THE WHOLE LIST.
> MassHistPres mailing list
> MassHistPres at cs.umb.edu
> http://mailman.cs.umb.edu/mailman/listinfo/masshistpres
> ********************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.cs.umb.edu/mailman/private/masshistpres/attachments/20091207/4278ebe8/attachment.htm>
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
MassHistPres mailing list
MassHistPres at cs.umb.edu
http://mailman.cs.umb.edu/mailman/listinfo/masshistpres
End of MassHistPres Digest, Vol 46, Issue 12
********************************************
More information about the MassHistPres
mailing list