[MassHistPres] MassHistPres Digest, Vol 41, Issue 14
Pat Patrick
pat at oldtownrepair.com
Wed Jul 15 18:48:04 EDT 2009
Re: Slate Roof. Answer? All the above!
The owner is and has always been in past, current, and future responsible
for what may leave his property, and damage the property of, essentially,
anybody else. Just try to resolve the mess a wind storm causes. Not
responsible for Acts of God? The last time God was in a courtroom, ended
with OJ.
Notifying the neighbor is, in the long run, futile; because the neighbor can
park anywhere they please. It is their property. Again, try to argue "I
told them so!" in court. "Did you document that conversation, in writing,
acknowledged by both parties?" "No, we ran across one another in
Starbuck's, and I told them!" No paperwork? No witnesses? Never happened.
Insulate the attic and reduce the heat loss which is the root cause of
avalanches. This is good for you! This is called a good faith effort as
described off the tongue of a "good" lawyer. A good lawyer would tell the
defendant to settle and get on with it! It happened. A REALLY good lawyer
would nail your and your insurance company's butt to the wall, or come after
you regardless of the coverage you believe you have in writing from your
insurance company, and often succeed.
The request to remove the slate roof is unreasonable in terms of potential
remedy for the neighbor. There is no such thing as a potential remedy.
Remedy fixes things that have happened, and the letter from their insurance
company is worth what we all know is free. No harm, no foul. Talk to me
when you are bleeding.
Never expect an insurance company to act proactively or to spend money
proactively. They are not in the business of being good neighbors. They
are in the business of collecting premiums and returning the best ROI to
shareholders. Litigation is a calculated cost of doing business, and is
above the line resulting in ROI.
Finally, "This is the best thing you can do" is the advice of someone that
does not live in your house, or neighborhood, and is probably more
interested in billings and expediency. I am referring to the insurance
companies of course. Actually I find lawyers quite clever and helpful.
That is, concerning the aforementioned. Well, everybody has to earn a
living, huh?
So what is the historical value of this missive? Nothing. What is the
value of this advice, if it is advice to begin with? Little, if any. Just
musings from one who is from a family "in the insurance business." That
business is brutally cold and impassionate. When push comes to shove,
settlement and ROI rule the day. "The best you can do," is what you believe
you could live with in a worst case scenario without an insurance company in
the picture. I understand that is what the insurance business is all about.
Good advice, huh? Tongue in cheek, tongue in cheek!
Respectively,
Pat
James M. "Pat" Patrick
OldTownRepair
2 Pleasant Court, Ground Floor Office
Marblehead, MA 01945-3310
781-631-5145 (P)
781-639-8024 (F)
pat at oldtownrepair.com
www.oldtownrepair.com
-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 4:34 PM
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Subject: MassHistPres Digest, Vol 41, Issue 14
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Today's Topics:
1. Slate roofs and insurance issues (Reich, Alene)
2. Farmstand in the LHD (Reich, Alene)
3. Re: Farmstand in the LHD (Jonathan Feist)
4. Re: Farmstand in the LHD (Gretchen Schuler)
5. Re: Farmstand in the LHD (Tucker, Jonathan)
6. Re: Farmstand in the LHD (Carol Carlson)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 13:00:14 -0400
From: "Reich, Alene" <AReich at ci.methuen.ma.us>
Subject: [MassHistPres] Slate roofs and insurance issues
To: masshistpres at cs.umb.edu
Message-ID:
<35A9BF6D4B53A446845B8DC5A98AE159028C5D59 at its-09.cityofmethuen.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
David brings up a good point. Insurance companies are not fond of slate, or
knob and tube, or, well, anything historic. I suggest that the solution is
NOT for the homeowner to call their insurance company- that is a good way to
lose insurance or lose the slate roof in favor of asphalt shingles.
My opinion is that the way to move forward is to install fences or a heating
element, etc as a good faith effort toward the neighbor. That way, if
there is an incident the homeowner has done something to mitigate the issue.
Maybe the slate roof will be saved from blame.
Have a great day,
Alene
Alene Reich
Historic Planner, City of Methuen
Searles Building
41 Pleasant St, Suite 217
Methuen, MA 01844
Tel: (978) 983-8564
Fax: (978) 983-8976
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Slate Roofs and Insurance Issues (barbarawales at verizon.net)
2. Re: Slate Roofs and Insurance Issues (David Temple)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 11:09:28 -0500 (CDT)
From: barbarawales at verizon.net
Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] Slate Roofs and Insurance Issues
To: jdianeol at aol.com
Cc: copperandslate at gmail.com, masshistpres at cs.umb.edu
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 09:24:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Temple <davidftemple at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] Slate Roofs and Insurance Issues
To: MHC MHC listserve <masshistpres at cs.umb.edu>, Dennis De Witt
<djdewitt at rcn.com>
Message-ID: <534599.78583.qm at web63401.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I'd expect if the slate roof homeowner brought the issue to his/her
insurance company, the company would solve their problem by immediately
cancelling the insurance policy.?
In your reply, please include my original message. AOL users please note!
David Temple
David F. Temple, Inc.
300 South Street
Medfield, MA 02052
508-359-2915
--- On Wed, 7/15/09, Dennis De Witt <djdewitt at rcn.com> wrote:
From: Dennis De Witt <djdewitt at rcn.com>
Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] Slate Roofs and Insurance Issues
To: "MHC MHC listserve" <masshistpres at cs.umb.edu>
Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2009, 11:26 AM
I would strongly question the last statement. ?I can observe the action of a
lot of snow under various conditions on steep roofs from my office windows.
?The snow on asphalt melts or sublimates but generally does not avalanche.
?The snow on some slate roofs?avalanches with great predictability.
I would also question whether the fact that "you were there first" and it
has been happening for a long time is an adequate defense if your roof
unexpectedly drops hundreds of pound of snow (perhaps containing a broken
slate or two) on someone out shoveling snow in his own driveway. ?
Might be much better not to be confrontational but rather to invest in snow
loops or fences.
Dennis De Witt?
Brookline
On Jul 15, 2009, at 11:03 AM, jdianeol at aol.com wrote:
I agree with Garrett on this.? The house & slate roof were likely there long
before the neighbor or the neighbor's car.? Now that the neighbor knows that
snow (and possibly ice) can fall off the slate roof and onto the
aforementioned car, it would behoove the neighbor to park a little farther
forward or back.? However, if the owner of the slate roof is concerned about
this, they should take the letter from the neighbor's insurance company to
their own insurance company (homeowner's liability coverage) to get their
advice & input.? I'm guessing that one of several scenarios will play out:
A) homeonwer's insurance provider will say that auto insurance provider is
full of %^$#%$# and can just TRY to get payment on a claim like that (in
other words, go stuff themselves)
B) the insurance company's will work out a compromise on their own
C) the homeowner's insurance provider will offer an alternate solution that
does NOT involve removing a perfectly good & solid slate roof which is of
greater value to the insurance company since it has a much longer lifespan
and much lower fire risk than asphalt.?
By the way, asphalt shingles would NOT result in reduced snow drop/potential
for damage but would more likely INCREASE the problem. The asphalt, with a
rougher surface than slate, will hold MORE snow on the roof until such point
& time as the coefficient of friction has been met or exceeded and the snow
drops onto the neighbors car.? Because this will take more snow/more weight
to achieve than would be the case on slate shingles, the potential for
damage to the neighbors car will be INCREASED with asphalt shingles, not
decreased.
Diane Oliver-Jensen
West Brookfield
-----Original Message-----
From: Garrett Laws <copperandslate at gmail.com>
To: masshistpres at cs.umb.edu
Sent: Tue, Jul 14, 2009 8:04 pm
Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] Slate Roofs and Insurance Issues
A) The owner of the slate roof (the insurance company for the owner of the
slate roof) is and always has been liable for damage from the snow sliding
off the roof.
B) The neighbor should now consider themselves informed and warned about the
potential for snow to slide off of the slate roof and not park their car
under the roof if there is a large snow fall. Sorry, this just seems
obvious.
C) If the insurance company is interested in paying for the installation of
snow guards or snow loops, the owner of the roof should pursue the
installation.
1) The slate roof should not be removed because it is doing the correct job
that it has been doing for the life of the roof, and if it is truly Munson
black slate, it will be doing for at least another 100 years!
2) It would be a sensible thing for the owner of the slate roof to
investigate the quality of the insulation (if any) under the slate roof,
having this correct will save them money and reduce the potential for icing
and heavier masses coming off the roof.
Lets all try to think longer term here...
Garrett
PS Heating cables have the ability to cause ice dams if the melting water is
not properly directed from the roof and kept melted.
On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 3:39 PM, Kristi Chase <KChase at somervillema.gov>
wrote:
I have received a call from a homeowner whose neighbor would like him to
remove his Munson slate roof because it sheds snow where the neighbor parks
his car.? The property is not listed as an LHD but retains much of its
original character.? The homeowner has received a threatening letter from
the neighbor's insurance company stating that he is liable for any damage
done to the neighbor or his car and requesting that he replace the roof with
asphalt.? Does anyone have the names of lawyers who might deal with this
type of issue or have any advice I can pass on?
Thanks to all,
Kristi Chase
Preservation Planner
Historic Preservation Commission
Office of Strategic Planning and Community Development
City Hall
93 Highland Avenue
Somerville, MA? 02143
617-625-6600 x2525
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--
Cheers,
Garrett
Garrett Laws, Manager
The Copper & Slate Company
Fine Roofing and Exterior Finish Carpentry
238A Calvary Street
Waltham, MA 02453
Ph: (781) 893-1916
Fax: (781) 893-2041
Copperandslate at Gmail.com or
GLaws at hbuilders.net
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 14:57:47 -0400
From: "Reich, Alene" <AReich at ci.methuen.ma.us>
Subject: [MassHistPres] Farmstand in the LHD
To: masshistpres at cs.umb.edu
Message-ID:
<35A9BF6D4B53A446845B8DC5A98AE1590210078E at its-09.cityofmethuen.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Everyone,
A question to the masses- and, of course, I am trying to solve this problem
before the end of business today.
We have had a request to put a farm stand in the LHD. It would be a tent,
placed for the rest of the season on a vacant lot. It seems that they plan
to use it daily, not just as a special event farmers' market. The Building
Dept. said they don't need a permit and I am still waiting to see if they
need a license.
The first impulse was to say "Sure! Great!" but the fact that we have
nothing in the Rules and Regs even remotely pertinent to this I am second
guessing that impulse.
Any thoughts?
Alene
Alene Reich
Historic Planner, City of Methuen
Searles Building
41 Pleasant St, Suite 217
Methuen, MA 01844
Tel: (978) 983-8564
Fax: (978) 983-8976
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:09:57 -0400
From: Jonathan Feist <jfeist at charter.net>
Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] Farmstand in the LHD
To: "Reich, Alene" <AReich at ci.methuen.ma.us>
Cc: masshistpres at cs.umb.edu
Message-ID: <FCE39F62-6818-4CB2-AF04-9699C223980C at charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed;
delsp=yes
To me, a farmstand contributes profoundly towards community
preservation in the highest sense, in terms of sustaining our rapidly
vanishing architectural landscape. I would be a cheerleader for the
effort in all communications, and only gently guide it towards being
architecturally consonant as practicality permits, particularly
because it won't be a permanent fixture. I might just clarify when it
will go away. The label "temporary structure" is often a gray area.
Jonathan Feist
Chair, Harvard Historical Commission
On Jul 15, 2009, at 2:57 PM, Reich, Alene wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
>
> A question to the masses- and, of course, I am trying to solve this
> problem before the end of business today.
>
> We have had a request to put a farm stand in the LHD. It would be a
> tent, placed for the rest of the season on a vacant lot. It seems
> that they plan to use it daily, not just as a special event farmers'
> market. The Building Dept. said they don't need a permit and I am
> still waiting to see if they need a license.
>
> The first impulse was to say "Sure! Great!" but the fact that we
> have nothing in the Rules and Regs even remotely pertinent to this I
> am second guessing that impulse.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Alene
>
> Alene Reich
>
> Historic Planner, City of Methuen
> Searles Building
> 41 Pleasant St, Suite 217
> Methuen, MA 01844
>
> Tel: (978) 983-8564
> Fax: (978) 983-8976
>
> ******************************
> For administrative questions regarding this list, please contact
Christopher.Skelly at state.ma.us
> directly. PLEASE DO NOT "REPLY" TO THE WHOLE LIST.
> MassHistPres mailing list
> MassHistPres at cs.umb.edu
> http://mailman.cs.umb.edu/mailman/listinfo/masshistpres
> ********************************
================================
Jonathan Feist
jfeist at charter.net ? 978-772-4864
Blog: Delights and Processes http://blogs.townonline.com/delight/
Writing about Music http://jonathanfeist.berkleemusicblogs.com/
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:22:51 -0400
From: "Gretchen Schuler" <ggschuler at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] Farmstand in the LHD
To: "Reich, Alene" <AReich at ci.methuen.ma.us>,
<masshistpres at cs.umb.edu>
Message-ID: <2C6BB70B20BD48C0BE3DA83BBBCB26D1 at pc>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=original
I would encourage the commission to think of it as NOT an irrevocable
change - that it would NOT be detrimental to the district as a whole or in
part and certainly if someone thinks it is - it is temporary! So I would
agree with Jonathan Feist's comments and hope that it contributes to the
district. What are the chances that some part of the district was once used
for farmer's market or some such use?
Gretchen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reich, Alene" <AReich at ci.methuen.ma.us>
To: <masshistpres at cs.umb.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 2:57 PM
Subject: [MassHistPres] Farmstand in the LHD
> Hi Everyone,
>
> A question to the masses- and, of course, I am trying to solve this
> problem before the end of business today.
>
> We have had a request to put a farm stand in the LHD. It would be a tent,
> placed for the rest of the season on a vacant lot. It seems that they
> plan to use it daily, not just as a special event farmers' market. The
> Building Dept. said they don't need a permit and I am still waiting to see
> if they need a license.
>
> The first impulse was to say "Sure! Great!" but the fact that we have
> nothing in the Rules and Regs even remotely pertinent to this I am second
> guessing that impulse.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Alene
>
> Alene Reich
>
> Historic Planner, City of Methuen
> Searles Building
> 41 Pleasant St, Suite 217
> Methuen, MA 01844
>
> Tel: (978) 983-8564
> Fax: (978) 983-8976
>
> ******************************
> For administrative questions regarding this list, please contact
> Christopher.Skelly at state.ma.us directly. PLEASE DO NOT "REPLY" TO THE
> WHOLE LIST.
> MassHistPres mailing list
> MassHistPres at cs.umb.edu
> http://mailman.cs.umb.edu/mailman/listinfo/masshistpres
> ********************************
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:26:08 -0400
From: "Tucker, Jonathan" <TuckerJ at amherstma.gov>
Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] Farmstand in the LHD
To: "Reich, Alene" <AReich at ci.methuen.ma.us>,
<masshistpres at cs.umb.edu>
Message-ID: <2AB5DA1A6F18EF469DC3420EB334D7ED2E5ED3 at amherst60.TOA.twn>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Methuen's zoning does appear to require a permit from the Building
Commissioner for either a roadside stand or a seasonal sale (Sections
V-N, 2. and 3., pp. 45-46), but if the applicant meets certain
standards, the permit has to be granted. If the LHD is in an area where
open air markets or farm stand sales involving temporary structures have
historically occurred, then there would be no reason for the LHD Rules &
Regulations to address the issue. If they were proposing a permanent
structure that they only intended to use seasonally, then I suspect your
regulations would be able to address whatever legitimate LHD issues
arose.
I suspect that any complaints you may subsequently receive will be more
about disagreeing with the flexibility of your zoning than about impacts
on historical resources.
Good Luck,
Jonathan Tucker
Planning Director
Amherst Planning Department
4 Boltwood Avenue, Town Hall
Amherst, MA 01002
(413) 259-3040
tuckerj at amherstma.gov
-----Original Message-----
From: masshistpres-bounces at cs.umb.edu
[mailto:masshistpres-bounces at cs.umb.edu] On Behalf Of Reich, Alene
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 2:58 PM
To: masshistpres at cs.umb.edu
Subject: [MassHistPres] Farmstand in the LHD
Hi Everyone,
A question to the masses- and, of course, I am trying to solve this
problem before the end of business today.
We have had a request to put a farm stand in the LHD. It would be a
tent, placed for the rest of the season on a vacant lot. It seems that
they plan to use it daily, not just as a special event farmers' market.
The Building Dept. said they don't need a permit and I am still waiting
to see if they need a license.
The first impulse was to say "Sure! Great!" but the fact that we have
nothing in the Rules and Regs even remotely pertinent to this I am
second guessing that impulse.
Any thoughts?
Alene
Alene Reich
Historic Planner, City of Methuen
Searles Building
41 Pleasant St, Suite 217
Methuen, MA 01844
Tel: (978) 983-8564
Fax: (978) 983-8976
******************************
For administrative questions regarding this list, please contact
Christopher.Skelly at state.ma.us directly. PLEASE DO NOT "REPLY" TO THE
WHOLE LIST.
MassHistPres mailing list
MassHistPres at cs.umb.edu
http://mailman.cs.umb.edu/mailman/listinfo/masshistpres
********************************
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:33:29 -0400
From: Carol Carlson <carolmcarl at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] Farmstand in the LHD
To: "Reich, Alene" <AReich at ci.methuen.ma.us>
Cc: masshistpres at cs.umb.edu
Message-ID: <4A5E3D19.10402 at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
Alene:
Like you, my first thoughts are "sure" also. However, my concerns would
include the size and color of this tent, where the parking would be, and
any signs or lighting to be used. I would definitely encourage having a
public hearing on the issue, so any neighbors/citizens could voice their
concerns and the members of the HDC/Planning Board could set down any
regulations they feel are important. This may only be a temporary
seasonal market, but if it is profitable, it may very well be a yearly
summer event. Before a Sure! Great! I'd want all the questions
answered, and a written Notice of requirements to the market manager and
for your files. Bedford now has a great farmer's market, but only open
on Mondays. I wish Methuen well, and agree with all that Jonathan
proclaimed!
My best,
Carol M Carlson
Bedford HDC
Reich, Alene wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
>
> A question to the masses- and, of course, I am trying to solve this
problem before the end of business today.
>
> We have had a request to put a farm stand in the LHD. It would be a tent,
placed for the rest of the season on a vacant lot. It seems that they plan
to use it daily, not just as a special event farmers' market. The Building
Dept. said they don't need a permit and I am still waiting to see if they
need a license.
>
> The first impulse was to say "Sure! Great!" but the fact that we have
nothing in the Rules and Regs even remotely pertinent to this I am second
guessing that impulse.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Alene
>
> Alene Reich
>
> Historic Planner, City of Methuen
> Searles Building
> 41 Pleasant St, Suite 217
> Methuen, MA 01844
>
> Tel: (978) 983-8564
> Fax: (978) 983-8976
>
> ******************************
> For administrative questions regarding this list, please contact
Christopher.Skelly at state.ma.us directly. PLEASE DO NOT "REPLY" TO THE WHOLE
LIST.
> MassHistPres mailing list
> MassHistPres at cs.umb.edu
> http://mailman.cs.umb.edu/mailman/listinfo/masshistpres
> ********************************
>
>
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