[MassHistPres] MassHistPres Digest, Vol 60, Issue 4
Christine Beard
christinebeard at verizon.net
Mon Feb 7 09:03:46 EST 2011
We have used Universal and Lewin windows in projects where we have very large windows and operability has not been a problem with the new sash. Also, remember that if Springfield is using state or federal funding for window replacements, MHC will have to review the project and would certainly request an appropriate replacement sash in terms of its appearance.
Chris
TREMONT PRESERVATION SERVICES
21 MARKET STREET
IPSWICH, MA 01938
978-356-0322
On Feb 4, 2011, at 2:33 PM, masshistpres-request at cs.umb.edu wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Large School Windows (Scott A. Winkler, AIA)
> 2. Re: Large school windows (SCeccacci at aol.com)
> 3. Re: Large School Windows (Wendy Nicholas)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 12:34:03 -0500
> From: "Scott A. Winkler, AIA" <swinkler.architect at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] Large School Windows
> To: masshistpres at cs.umb.edu
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTinc_83HreCYXuNoO3anfKH_NBpRsya69pq0AifO at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Ralph -
>
> I have done a number of mill renovation projects which utilized very large
> replacement widows.
> I also worked on a historic school in Newport, RI which had large original
> wood windows and contained elderly housing.
> All of these projects followed the Secretary of the Interiors Standards.
>
> On the Newport project, the same argument was used with the original windows
> - they were two heavy for the elderly to
> open and had to be replaced. The SHPO and NPS held firm on restoration, and
> we were able to restore these windows,
> make them fully operational, weatherstrip them, and install new exterior
> storm windows for less than the budget for replacement windows.
> Once these old windows are restored, the weights, chain, and pulleys; along
> with bronze weatherstripping on the wood jamb, make these
> 8 foot tall double hung windows pretty easy to open, even for the elderly
> residents. By the way, a restored wood window with a good
> storm window has similar energy performance to a new insulated window, are
> easily repairable, and will easily outlast new replacement windows.
>
> On the mill projects, the windows had typically be replaced previously.
> Companies like Marvin and Pella can make large wood
> replacement windows with insulated glass (with or without aluminum cladding)
> to replicate original frames, brick-molding, sash, and mullion pattern.
> They are counter-weighted to make them easy to open. There are also several
> companies that make all aluminum windows which
> also can match original windows and again are counter-weighted for easy
> operation.
>
> It is foolish for someone to assume that a company would make and sell a
> large window that could not be opened by a typical person - this just is not
> true.
> Stories of difficulty in opening large windows usually come from poorly
> maintained original sash with missing/ broken ropes or chains, or from cheap
> vinyl replacement windows, which do not hold up over time.
>
> Good luck in your efforts.
>
> Scott Winkler, AIA
>
>
>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 22:33:18 -0500
>> From: Ralph Slate <slater at alum.rpi.edu>
>> Subject: [MassHistPres] Large school windows
>> To: MassHistPres MA <masshistpres at cs.umb.edu>
>> Message-ID: <4D4B737E.40903 at alum.rpi.edu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> As part of an energy efficiency program, the city of Springfield is
>> contracting for the replacement of windows in several of its older
>> (1900-1930) schools. Some of the windows had already been replaced over
>> the years, others are original to the building. The city is proposing to
>> replace what used to be large (not sure the height, but probably 7' or
>> 8' opening), double-hung windows with a three-panel approach, the top
>> 1/3 being fixed, with a smaller double-hung window installed below it.
>> It would be a significant visual departure from the original design
>> because it would appear as three separate panels rather than two.
>>
>> Their argument was that 8' double hung replacement windows would be too
>> hard for teachers to open. I asked if they had specific complaints in
>> the city about this, and the architect admitted that they did not, nor
>> did they do any research about it, but they had feedback from other
>> communities so this is what they proposed.
>>
>> Does anyone have any comment on this? Any alternative approaches? Any
>> corroboration of the "too hard to open" claim?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ralph Slate
>> Springfield, MA
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Scott A. Winkler, AIA, LEED AP
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 12:49:26 EST
> From: SCeccacci at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] Large school windows
> To: slater at alum.rpi.edu, masshistpres at cs.umb.edu
> Message-ID: <130c0.60d3e7ac.3a7d9626 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> If they are weight balanced windows, even very large windows shouldn't be
> difficult to operate if they are maintained and in good working order.
>
> A window survey done in the schools that still have original windows in
> place might show that repair and maintenance to make the window sash and
> frames weather tight is cheaper while it also preserves the historic appearance
> of the buildings.
>
> Susan McDaniel Ceccacci
> Historic Preservation Consultant
>
>
> In a message dated 2/4/2011 10:17:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> slater at alum.rpi.edu writes:
>
>
> I do appreciate the sentiment that original windows are preferable to
> replacements, however the reality of the situation is that these windows will
> be replaced; the best we can do is affect their design.
>
> Does anyone here have any specific experience with 1900-1930's era school
> windows (i.e. door-sized windows) being replaced, and if there are any
> design techniques that could maintain the look of the window but make it easy
> to operate?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ralph
>
>
>
> in honor of reagan's centennial celebration, i will
>> begin with a quote "there you go again"...'you' meaning those who would
> suggest
>> replacing old windows because they might be difficult to open...
>>
>> the rope, pulley, weight balance system is the simplest and longest
> lasting
>> mechanism for operating sash of nearly any size...replacement components
> for
>> windows installed during the year of reagan's birth are still available
> today
>> and the average diy homeowner can manage repair or replacement on their
>> own...parts for 10-20 year old replacement windows are, for the most
> part, no
>> longer available...
>>
>> i recently visited a library in natick to inspect 6' x 10'
> windows...where the
>> ropes were still in place, lifting the bottom sash was easy...10 years
> ago, they
>> had top notch replacement windows installed on one floor...the glass
> seals have
>> failed and the sash are difficult to open...that is but one example of
> the many
>> instances where municipalities have rued the decision to replace rather
> than
>> restore large old windows...read the fine print on the replacement's 20
> year
>> limited warranty...the glass is warranteed for 10 years...only in the
> first two
>> years will manufacturers pay for labor and material...after two years,
> they, at
>> their determination, supply the replacement part but you must supply the
> labor...
>>
>> a properly balanced sash in conjunction with finger lifts makes for simple
>> operation. i take no responsibility for tiny first graders who may
> discover the
>> joy of opening a sash to the delight of her/his peers and dismay of the
> teacher...
>>
>> years ago, natural air conditioning was achieved by opening the top sash
> to let
>> warm air escape and the bottom sash to allow relatively cool air
>> infiltrate...there is a simple piece of hardware that can be installed at
> the
>> top of the top sash and a pole with a hook to simply lower and close the
> sash...
>>
>> please see the examples below....
>>
>> http://kilian.stores.yahoo.net/saslifbyphel.html
>> http://kilian.stores.yahoo.net/ivno118winpo.html
>>
>> ralph, i wish you the best in your attempts to TEAR DOWN THAT MYTH!!
>>
>> .....jade
>>
>> jade l. mortimer
>> heartwood window restoration
>> hawley, ma
>> 413-339-4298 p/f
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Ralph Slate
>> To: MassHistPres MA
>> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 10:33 PM
>> Subject: [MassHistPres] Large school windows
>>
>>
>> As part of an energy efficiency program, the city of Springfield is
>> contracting for the replacement of windows in several of its older
>> (1900-1930) schools. Some of the windows had already been replaced over
>> the years, others are original to the building. The city is proposing to
>> replace what used to be large (not sure the height, but probably 7' or
>> 8' opening), double-hung windows with a three-panel approach, the top
>> 1/3 being fixed, with a smaller double-hung window installed below it.
>> It would be a significant visual departure from the original design
>> because it would appear as three separate panels rather than two.
>>
>> Their argument was that 8' double hung replacement windows would be too
>> hard for teachers to open. I asked if they had specific complaints in
>> the city about this, and the architect admitted that they did not, nor
>> did they do any research about it, but they had feedback from other
>> communities so this is what they proposed.
>>
>> Does anyone have any comment on this? Any alternative approaches? Any
>> corroboration of the "too hard to open" claim?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ralph Slate
>> Springfield, MA
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 14:33:11 -0500
> From: Wendy Nicholas <Wendy_Nicholas at nthp.org>
> Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] Large School Windows
> To: "Scott A. Winkler, AIA" <swinkler.architect at gmail.com>,
> "masshistpres at cs.umb.edu" <masshistpres at cs.umb.edu>
> Message-ID:
> <1BB68F6D411C33499A67A9FAA2D889BE6F80E14A30 at NTEMAIL.nthp.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Scott, the Newport school example is exactly what came to my mind. Ralph, it is a superb poster child for case you want to make. Those enormous windows slide up and down very easily.
>
> You might direct the Springfield folks to www.SavetheWindows.org<http://www.SavetheWindows.org>. The National Trust for Historic Preservation has compiled in that one place a lot of great information about why to and how to retrofit older and historic windows, rather than replacing them. And, we've started a list/map of contractors who're skilled at window repair.
>
> Wendy Nicholas | Director, Northeast Office
> National Trust for Historic Preservation | 7 Faneuil Hall Marketplace, 4th Floor. Boston, MA 02109
> Phone: 617-523-0885 | Fax: 617-523-1199 | Email: wendy_nicholas at nthp.org<mailto:wendy_nicholas at nthp.org>. www.PreservationNation.org<http://www.preservationnation.org/>
>
>
> From: masshistpres-bounces at cs.umb.edu [mailto:masshistpres-bounces at cs.umb.edu] On Behalf Of Scott A. Winkler, AIA
> Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 12:34 PM
> To: masshistpres at cs.umb.edu
> Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] Large School Windows
>
> Hi Ralph -
>
> I have done a number of mill renovation projects which utilized very large replacement widows.
> I also worked on a historic school in Newport, RI which had large original wood windows and contained elderly housing.
> All of these projects followed the Secretary of the Interiors Standards.
>
> On the Newport project, the same argument was used with the original windows - they were two heavy for the elderly to
> open and had to be replaced. The SHPO and NPS held firm on restoration, and we were able to restore these windows,
> make them fully operational, weatherstrip them, and install new exterior storm windows for less than the budget for replacement windows.
> Once these old windows are restored, the weights, chain, and pulleys; along with bronze weatherstripping on the wood jamb, make these
> 8 foot tall double hung windows pretty easy to open, even for the elderly residents. By the way, a restored wood window with a good
> storm window has similar energy performance to a new insulated window, are easily repairable, and will easily outlast new replacement windows.
>
> On the mill projects, the windows had typically be replaced previously. Companies like Marvin and Pella can make large wood
> replacement windows with insulated glass (with or without aluminum cladding) to replicate original frames, brick-molding, sash, and mullion pattern.
> They are counter-weighted to make them easy to open. There are also several companies that make all aluminum windows which
> also can match original windows and again are counter-weighted for easy operation.
>
> It is foolish for someone to assume that a company would make and sell a large window that could not be opened by a typical person - this just is not true.
> Stories of difficulty in opening large windows usually come from poorly maintained original sash with missing/ broken ropes or chains, or from cheap
> vinyl replacement windows, which do not hold up over time.
>
> Good luck in your efforts.
>
> Scott Winkler, AIA
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 22:33:18 -0500
> From: Ralph Slate <slater at alum.rpi.edu<mailto:slater at alum.rpi.edu>>
> Subject: [MassHistPres] Large school windows
> To: MassHistPres MA <masshistpres at cs.umb.edu<mailto:masshistpres at cs.umb.edu>>
> Message-ID: <4D4B737E.40903 at alum.rpi.edu<mailto:4D4B737E.40903 at alum.rpi.edu>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> As part of an energy efficiency program, the city of Springfield is
> contracting for the replacement of windows in several of its older
> (1900-1930) schools. Some of the windows had already been replaced over
> the years, others are original to the building. The city is proposing to
> replace what used to be large (not sure the height, but probably 7' or
> 8' opening), double-hung windows with a three-panel approach, the top
> 1/3 being fixed, with a smaller double-hung window installed below it.
> It would be a significant visual departure from the original design
> because it would appear as three separate panels rather than two.
>
> Their argument was that 8' double hung replacement windows would be too
> hard for teachers to open. I asked if they had specific complaints in
> the city about this, and the architect admitted that they did not, nor
> did they do any research about it, but they had feedback from other
> communities so this is what they proposed.
>
> Does anyone have any comment on this? Any alternative approaches? Any
> corroboration of the "too hard to open" claim?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ralph Slate
> Springfield, MA
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> --
> Scott A. Winkler, AIA, LEED AP
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> End of MassHistPres Digest, Vol 60, Issue 4
> *******************************************
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