[MassHistPres] replacement windows

[Dennis De Witt]

Nancy

First, I wholly agree with Garrett about not supplying a list, for the reason he gives.  But I would more strongly urge NOT doing it.  Once done the horse is truly out of the barn.  Brookline does not allow non-like kind replacement of windows in its 8 LHDs.  (They are allowed by right in Brookline's 2 NCDs — but an NCD typically has a different underlying philosophy.)

Second, Brookline has not in general published lists of approved vendors or suppliers.  As I understand it, town counsel deemed it inappropriate for the town to be seen as officially privileging, recommending, or requiring specific vendors, products or, professionals — which is not to say that applicants cannot be told verbally about vendors and products that others have successfully used. 

Having said that, you should publish specific guidelines for windows in NEW construction — where presumably in most LHDs IG is allowed.  For new construction Brookline has traditionally required paintable wood, not clad, but has allowed adhered external muntins.  Internal muntin bars are not allowed.  Marvin has often been used.  

One reason for adhered muntins vs TDLs is that TDLs with IG tend to have muntins that are too wide because of the combined width of the spacer bars at the edges of the two abutting lites.  (Needless to say TDLs cost more too.)  Also TDLs with the very thinnest muntins must have spacer bars so thin that they can contain very little of the desiccant that keeps the IG from clouding up.  Eventually when the seal fails, as it always does, and moisture begins to be pumped into the IG by successive oscillations in atmospheric air pressure, the desiccant then absorbs all the moisture it can hold and the clouding begins.  Another issue with TDLs is that in a 6/6 there are six chances per sash of a unit failing, rather than one.  Statistically the first failure is likely to happen sooner.

Lastly, and perhaps seeming to contradict the above, Brookline has a few inter-war LHD houses with Crittall or Hope steel casement windows whose frames eventually rust out and that are extremely difficult and expensive to repair or replace like-kind and that don’t offer good storm options.  Brookline has mede an exception for them, allowing the use of aluminum replacement windows designed to match (approximately) the appearance of steel casements — and even those are difficult to source.

Dennis De Witt
Brookline


> On Mar 16, 2018, at 8:24 PM, Nancy Dole <nlouisedole at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> All of which is great. And good to know, for my own property, and for other owners who feel its important and wise to restore original windows, replace the storms with better newer ones perhaps if needed. But that is not the question. Our members are allowing replacement windows, every time, and I feel given that reality I would like to have a conversation about which ones districts think are the best alternatives out there. I thought some of you might have some suggestions, I know this is coming up in every district. 
> 
>> On Mar 16, 2018, at 6:52 PM, Dennis De Witt <djdewitt at rcn.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I find it appalling that Plymouth, of all places, would allow any sort of replacement windows in "properties [of] great historic significance.”
>> 
>> Forgive me for repeating prior comments but there is no justification ever for “replacement” insulating glass (IG) windows or sash vs good quality storms.  Especially in situations where storms are already in place .  The replacements will fail and need to be replaced again (and again) on average about once very 25 years, at a cost that far exceeds any small savings delta vs good storms, which never fail.  And often the storms are more efficient overall vs replacement sash because storms do a better job of stopping infiltration which is often as great a cause of energy loss as transfer though the glass.  
>> 
>> Storms also protect the original windows.
>> 
>> I used to build machinery for making IG and can claim some “inside knowledge."  The true original glass edged “Thermopane,” the kind of IG that would not fail (cloud up), stopped being made in the 1980s because the current “sealed” type is cheaper to make.  
>> 
>> I know old bare aluminum storms can deteriorate and become hard to slide.  I’d strongly suggest you look into Harvey Tru-Channel storms which are pre-finished, wond deteriorate, and weatherstripped.  They slide like butter and are extremely tight.  Although I’m not sure it's necessary, they are also available with low-e glass.  
>> 
>> Dennis De Witt
>> Brookline
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 15, 2018, at 5:23 PM, Nancy Dole <nlouisedole at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> We need to provide owners with a list of replacement windows that we would consider suitable. 
>>> 
>>> Plymouth HDC has a list, which I have. They have a list of acceptable windows for properties they feel have great historic significance, and another list for properties that they think do not have historic significance.
>>> 
>>> Could anyone forward me a list if your district has one, or tell me what you have approved? 
>>> 
>>> People in our district are more and more often requesting permission to replace existing wooden windows with aluminum clad or vinyl windows that are energy efficient. We are deciding as they come to us on a case by case basis, and its difficult for everyone involved. The applicant has no idea what we will accept, our only guideline is we prefer wooden windows and repairing existing windows. But that is not what  need to know, since for the most part they want to switch to modern materials etc. they do not want the wood windows. 
>>> 
>>> Other owners are not aware we might ok alum clad etc, and so they don't apply for them. We need to address this in a responsible way.
>>> 
>>> Thanks, 
>>> Nancy Dole
>>> WTHDC
>>> 
>>> 
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>>