[MassHistPres] a hex on plastic gutters

Tue Aug 19 11:33:02 EDT 2008

 I'm sure one of the other LEED APs will correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of the AIA/USGBC stand on PVC is based almost entirely on replacement windows and not on universal application of PVC materials anywhere & everywhere on a building.? The debate over "what to do about vinyl" was a long one & was not taken lightly.? Ultimately, the decision was made to include PVC windows towards LEED credits/points because they provide an economical alternative to some clients with very limited budgets to reduce energy consumption immediately.? The whole issue of PVC degeneration in UV light within about 15-20 years was weighed heavily, but the final decision to allow PVC windows was based on the prospect that a product with mixed "green" attributes, both positive and negative, could add to the energy savings in the short term and then (potentially) be upgraded to a more fully green alternative in the future.

 Ultimately, "green" is not a "black & white" issue but a series of choices along a spectrum and each situation will be unique in terms of the best environmental solution.? Isn't historical work frequently the same?? Don't we often need to hold our noses and accept a short term application of less-than-palatable solutions in order to save the structure overall and allow for future restoration to appropriate materials/finishes?

But back to wood gutters... Be aware that there is a growing trend for factory applied finishes (paints or stains) for lumber products.? While these finishes increase material costs, they also reduce labor costs and provide a much longer warrantee period over standard field applied paints or stains.? The longer warrantee comes from the factories' abilities to control all variables of ambient humidity, temperature and moisture content of wood so that the paint or stain is applied in optimal conditions.? Costs can be influenced by the number of coats applied in factory settings, ranging from a single primer coat only up to 2 full coats of finish.? Contractors then need only touch up ends and notches cut as needed to fit siding &/or trim during installation or touch up any cut ends and apply a final finish coat on-site if a primer-only application is selected.? Opting for a primer-only factory coating allows for a shorter lead time on matierals and for last minute changes in co!
 lor, should you be working with tight deadlines and/or waffling & indecisive building owners.? A factory applied finish, combined with a copper lining properly installed, could provide an? optimal combination of longevity, ecofriendliness, low maintenance and historic appropriateness.? Check with your lumberyard(s) to see if they have access to factory applied finishes.

Diane Oliver-Jensen, rla, assoc aia, LEED AP pending

-----Original Message-----
From: James Hadley <jameswhadley at hotmail.com>
To: jade <jade at crocker.com>; Sam Bird <greenbird-architect at comcast.net>; Deane Rykerson <rykersonarchitecture at comcast.net>
Cc: masshistpres at cs.umb.edu
Sent: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 10:59 am
Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] a hex on plastic gutters

Well, after going through all the firmly convinced opinions on AZEK and PVC 
I decided to check  the US Green Building Council's attitude on PVC.  As of 
today my research does not indicate that the USGBC precludes its use in LEED 
certified projects, in fact the latest decision I could find indicates that 
the USGBC decided against incentives for eliminating it from buildings.
I participated in a USGBC conference some years ago where this issue first 
came up. It was clear that the industry representatives were actively 
lobbying the USGBC (which is largely an industry group, although not 
entirely so.) The latest information I have on this entire issue is that the 
USGBC believes the use of PVC in not a yes or no issue - it is nuanced.
So if there is information out there about the specifics of the AZEK 
manufacturing process, or whether the factories have bad environmental 
records it should be brought forward. Otherwise I'm concerned that knee-jerk 
reactions will dominate the discussion. I am not a fan of the myth of 
maintenance free solutions, but I have seen so many deteriorated Greek 
Revival gutter/ eave details that I believe some open mindedness is in 
order.
James W Hadley AIA
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jade" <jade at crocker.com>
To: "Sam Bird" <greenbird-architect at comcast.net>; "Deane Rykerson" 
<rykersonarchitecture at comcast.net>
Cc: <masshistpres at cs.umb.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 9:30 PM
Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] a hex on plastic gutters

> plain copper may be a better idea though lead laden jet fuel will be with 
> us at least for the foreseeable future --raining down on us as it has for 
> decades...so much for green...
>
> before installing trim, i back prime AND paint, essentially sealing the 
> wood from the elements...since the interior of the gutter will be sealed 
> from water and moisture, and the fascia has a drip edge, i don't see water 
> hanging around to cause acceleration of deterioration...expansion  and 
> contraction over time will cause the paint to fail, but that is why 
> maintenance is such and important piece of the puzzle...PAINT IS THE GREAT 
> MAINTAINER......
>
> i agree that one way of looking at maintenance is securing 'green 
> jobs'...argh, did i say 'green'??
>
> ...jade
>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>  From: Sam Bird
>  To: Deane Rykerson
>  Cc: masshistpres at cs.umb.edu
>  Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 4:54 PM
>  Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] a hex on plastic gutters
>
>
>  While I agree that PVC (Azek et al) is an environmental disaster,
>  let's stop to think about LCC (lead coated copper). Eaves and gutter
>  bottoms are subject to great wear and erosion over time - where is
>  all that water and lead going? I believe the manufacture of LCC is
>  now all offshore as domestic companies can't do it and comply with
>  environmental regs - that has to tell us something about LCC.
>
>  Also, sealing one side of a piece of wood and not the other (in this
>  case the inside of the gutter) is not a great idea in terms of
>  preserving the wood long term. This leads to differential drying and
>  premature checking and failure.
>
>  This is a situation where there may not be an ideally historically
>  correct and green solution except for the way it has been done for
>  ages - ie. a wood gutter, well pitched, faithfully cleaned and oiled
>  at least twice a year and then replaced every 20 to 30 years. If the
>  push is to create "green jobs" perhaps the job of maintenance of the
>  green replacements for "maintenance free" materials is one place to
>  start.
>
>  Sam Bird AIA, LEED AP
>
>
>  On Aug 4, 2008, at 9:41 PM, Deane Rykerson wrote:
>
>  >
>  > On Aug 2, 2008, at 11:45 AM, James Hadley wrote:
>  >
>  >> There is a wood replica gutter available from Azek. It may be one
>  >> of the
>  >> better uses for Azek.
>  >> Jim Hadley, Orleans Historical Commission
>  >
>  >
>  > please, please, please don't use plastic (except maybe mixed with
>  > wood for decking).  What an environmental disaster in manufacture.
>  >
>  > We are using doug fir gutters at Hancock-Clarke in Lexington.  One
>  > section was bought at the lumber yard 30 feet long.  Here is a
>  > detail to line the wood gutter with copper (in this case lead-
>  > coated), adapted from Arron Sturgis and Rex Passion.
>  >
>  >
>  > Deane Rykerson AIA
>  > Rykerson Architecture
>  > 1 Salt Marsh Lane
>  > Kittery Point ME 03905
>  > 207-439-8755
>  > <Picture 7.png>
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > and the real thing.
>  >
>  >
>  > <Picture 9.png>
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