[MassHistPres] a hex on plastic gutters

[Dennis De Witt]

Your comment
"the USGBC (which is largely an industry group, although not entirely  
so.)"
is interesting.  We have an active "Green" group in town who have been  
advocating various "Green" strategies among which, not surprisingly,  
window replacement came up.  I was enthusiastically referred by one of  
them to the USGBC website as a source of "good information".  To me it  
felt to like other industry sponsored (trade group) information  
dispersal entities I have known that are intended to be (or seem)  
"neutral" and "informative" but clearly have an underlying industry  
based bias.  They seemed to push hi tech capital intensive solutions.   
Not surprising, I suppose.  That's where the money is.  As a test, I  
did some searching for information about insulating glass  
"failure" (clouding up) -- a real issue about which an objective  
source should have had real information.  I think there was only one  
tangential hit.

I am now a USGBC sceptic.

Dennis De Witt


On Aug 18, 2008, at 10:59 AM, James Hadley wrote:

> Well, after going through all the firmly convinced opinions on AZEK  
> and PVC
> I decided to check  the US Green Building Council's attitude on  
> PVC.  As of
> today my research does not indicate that the USGBC precludes its use  
> in LEED
> certified projects, in fact the latest decision I could find  
> indicates that
> the USGBC decided against incentives for eliminating it from  
> buildings.
> I participated in a USGBC conference some years ago where this issue  
> first
> came up. It was clear that the industry representatives were actively
> lobbying the USGBC (which is largely an industry group, although not
> entirely so.) The latest information I have on this entire issue is  
> that the
> USGBC believes the use of PVC in not a yes or no issue - it is  
> nuanced.
> So if there is information out there about the specifics of the AZEK
> manufacturing process, or whether the factories have bad environmental
> records it should be brought forward. Otherwise I'm concerned that  
> knee-jerk
> reactions will dominate the discussion. I am not a fan of the myth of
> maintenance free solutions, but I have seen so many deteriorated Greek
> Revival gutter/ eave details that I believe some open mindedness is in
> order.
> James W Hadley AIA
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jade" <jade at crocker.com>
> To: "Sam Bird" <greenbird-architect at comcast.net>; "Deane Rykerson"
> <rykersonarchitecture at comcast.net>
> Cc: <masshistpres at cs.umb.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 9:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] a hex on plastic gutters
>
>
>> plain copper may be a better idea though lead laden jet fuel will  
>> be with
>> us at least for the foreseeable future --raining down on us as it  
>> has for
>> decades...so much for green...
>>
>> before installing trim, i back prime AND paint, essentially sealing  
>> the
>> wood from the elements...since the interior of the gutter will be  
>> sealed
>> from water and moisture, and the fascia has a drip edge, i don't  
>> see water
>> hanging around to cause acceleration of deterioration...expansion   
>> and
>> contraction over time will cause the paint to fail, but that is why
>> maintenance is such and important piece of the puzzle...PAINT IS  
>> THE GREAT
>> MAINTAINER......
>>
>> i agree that one way of looking at maintenance is securing 'green
>> jobs'...argh, did i say 'green'??
>>
>> ...jade
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Sam Bird
>> To: Deane Rykerson
>> Cc: masshistpres at cs.umb.edu
>> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 4:54 PM
>> Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] a hex on plastic gutters
>>
>>
>> While I agree that PVC (Azek et al) is an environmental disaster,
>> let's stop to think about LCC (lead coated copper). Eaves and gutter
>> bottoms are subject to great wear and erosion over time - where is
>> all that water and lead going? I believe the manufacture of LCC is
>> now all offshore as domestic companies can't do it and comply with
>> environmental regs - that has to tell us something about LCC.
>>
>> Also, sealing one side of a piece of wood and not the other (in this
>> case the inside of the gutter) is not a great idea in terms of
>> preserving the wood long term. This leads to differential drying and
>> premature checking and failure.
>>
>> This is a situation where there may not be an ideally historically
>> correct and green solution except for the way it has been done for
>> ages - ie. a wood gutter, well pitched, faithfully cleaned and oiled
>> at least twice a year and then replaced every 20 to 30 years. If the
>> push is to create "green jobs" perhaps the job of maintenance of the
>> green replacements for "maintenance free" materials is one place to
>> start.
>>
>> Sam Bird AIA, LEED AP
>>
>>
>> On Aug 4, 2008, at 9:41 PM, Deane Rykerson wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 2, 2008, at 11:45 AM, James Hadley wrote:
>>>
>>>> There is a wood replica gutter available from Azek. It may be one
>>>> of the
>>>> better uses for Azek.
>>>> Jim Hadley, Orleans Historical Commission
>>>
>>>
>>> please, please, please don't use plastic (except maybe mixed with
>>> wood for decking).  What an environmental disaster in manufacture.
>>>
>>> We are using doug fir gutters at Hancock-Clarke in Lexington.  One
>>> section was bought at the lumber yard 30 feet long.  Here is a
>>> detail to line the wood gutter with copper (in this case lead-
>>> coated), adapted from Arron Sturgis and Rex Passion.
>>>
>>>
>>> Deane Rykerson AIA
>>> Rykerson Architecture
>>> 1 Salt Marsh Lane
>>> Kittery Point ME 03905
>>> 207-439-8755
>>> <Picture 7.png>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> and the real thing.
>>>
>>>
>>> <Picture 9.png>
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