[MassHistPres] Like kind windows

Tue Feb 14 13:35:11 EST 2017

As an architect, we always require contractors to submit "Shop Drawings" which are comprised of site specific fabrication information and manufactures product data sheets. For a city/town LHD it would be appropriate to require the owner / contractor to submit manufacturer product data sheets. While this information is generic, it will show the composition of the product (i.e. aluminum clad wood) as well as the profile. 

We also often request a 'product sample' although this may be more onerous to provide if the owner / contractor has not pre-purchased the product which is exactly what the LHD does not want to happen.

Of course if the contractor is restoring the window, this process may not be necessary.

....Mike

Michael Roughan, AIA, EDAC, LEED AP
Chairman - Hopkinton Historical Commission 

Town of Hopkinton
18 Main Street
Hopkinton, MA 01748 

D 617.357.7725 M 617.784.6463

-----Original Message-----
From: masshistpres-bounces at cs.umb.edu [mailto:masshistpres-bounces at cs.umb.edu] On Behalf Of jade at heartwoodrestoration.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:00 AM
To: jworden at swwalaw.com
Cc: masshistpres at cs.umb.edu
Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] Like kind windows

john, your response is music to my ears!
we are working on a 100 year old home in Wellesley where we will restore the wood primary and storm windows in the basement...no soil problems here, just a band of naughty squirrels who chewed through the muntins in an attempt to escape the house.......

jade Mortimer
heartwood window restoration

Quoting jworden at swwalaw.com:

> Nancy,Contractors typically want to replace windows because it's 
> easier, and they can buy them for x dollars & sell them to the 
> homeowner for 2x dollars.  When someone wants to replace windows, we 
> first ask if the owner has looked into repairing rather than replacing 
> - which often turns out to be no more (sometimes less) expensive, and 
> you get a  better product because old wood is so much better than what 
> they have now.  After getting caught once (promised wood windows, got 
> wood clad with aluminum), we are very careful to say no clad, no 
> composite, no vinyl.  The only exceptions are basement windows exposed 
> to dirt and moisture.Good wood windows in historic designs are 
> available - one of my sons, who lives in an
> 1819 house, just got some.John WordenArlington Historic District 
> Commissions
>
>
>
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> Subject : RE: MassHistPres Digest, Vol 132, Issue 15
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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. windows (Nancy Dole)
>    2. Re: windows (Christopher Bader)
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> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 14:41:11 -0500
>
>
> What does "like kind" mean? We have been getting applications for 
> certificate of non applicability for "maintenance, repair or 
> replacement using same design materials, color" in which the applicant 
> (contractor) notes that he plans to "remove existing windows and 
> replace with like kind, color and grill pattern" .  We recently 
> learned that what he means is he wants to replace existng wooden 
> windows with insulated aluminum clad window inserts, specifically 
> "Marvin Aluminum Clad Ultimate Insert Double Hung" .
>
> I assumed by the nature of the application that "like kind" meant the 
> same material, ie replace wood with wood. Another member felt that 
> "like kind" could mean replace wooden window with true divided lites, 
> with insulated aluminum clad wooden windows with mullions attached to 
> glass, because aluminum clad were the same color, were the same size 
> diameter and had a six over six grill pattern applied to glass that 
> was like the old six over six original window.
>
> Any one out there that can define "like kind". And do any districts 
> have a list of windows that they approve?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nancy Dole, West Tisbury Historic District Commission
>
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> Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 20:37:36 -0500
>
>
> Nancy,
>
> "Like kind" of course means exactly what it appears to mean.  Wood 
> with wood, etc.
>
> In Medford, we have often permitted an "indistinguishable in appearance"
> standard instead.  You should ask the contractor to bring in a 
> physical sample (not a photo) of what he intends to install.  Good 
> contractors will do this.
>
> Chris Bader
> Chair, Medford Historic District Commission
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 2:41 PM, Nancy Dole <ndole at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> What does "like kind" mean? We have been getting applications for 
>> certificate of non applicability for "maintenance, repair or 
>> replacement using same design materials, color" in which the 
>> applicant (contractor) notes that he plans to "remove existing 
>> windows and replace with like kind, color and grill pattern" .  We 
>> recently learned that what he means is he wants to replace existng 
>> wooden windows with insulated aluminum clad window inserts, specifically "Marvin Aluminum Clad Ultimate Insert Double Hung" .
>>
>> I assumed by the nature of the application that "like kind" meant the 
>> same material, ie replace wood with wood. Another member felt that "like kind"
>> could mean replace wooden window with true divided lites, with 
>> insulated aluminum clad wooden windows with mullions attached to 
>> glass, because aluminum clad were the same color, were the same size 
>> diameter and had a six over six grill pattern applied to glass that 
>> was like the old six over six original window.
>>
>> Any one out there that can define "like kind". And do any districts 
>> have a list of windows that they approve?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Nancy Dole, West Tisbury Historic District Commission
>>
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