[MassHistPres] replacement windows

[Ferriell, Jeffrey]

Hi everyone -

From 2012-2015 I was President of the MVCMA in Oak Bluffs, MA, where, as landowner, we have an approval process for exterior architectural changes to the 315 Victorian cottages owned by tenants on our land. Most of the “carpenter gothic” cottages were built between 1864-1870.  You can see pictures at www.mvcma.org<http://www.mvcma.org>, if you haven’t been there.  The entire grounds of the MVCMA is a National Historic Landmark, and the board takes its role as custodians of this historic cultural and architectural legacy pretty seriously.  It only permits all wood replacements of historic windows, and then only when repair is impracticable.  While I was president, I was also a member of our Architectural Review Committee that reviews applications for a certificate of appropriateness. (I appointed myself).

I’m no longer on the MVCMA board (thank God for term limits), but I now serve as a member of the Architectural Review Commission for the Columbus, Ohio, German Village neighborhood, where we’ve had architectural review for nearly 60 years. The housing stock in the neighborhood, which is 203 acres with  just south of downtown Columbus, dates only from 1890-1910 or so.   So, historic by Ohio standards, but not by New England standards.  Within the last two months, Columbus has decided, with the German Village Commission’s support, to permit installation of aluminum and fiberglass clad wood windows.  This decision was made because of our experience, over the past 60 years, with modern wood replacement windows.  We’ve learned that, despite the expense, they just don’t last.  Without that old growth wood, the quality of new wood windows will never be as durable as the original windows.  And, the price of replacement windows with that high quality old growth wood, is beyond the range of many of our residents.

Our existing guidelines, without the new window list, are at: https://www.columbus.gov/Templates/Detail.aspx?id=67372#GVg   More about the neighborhood is on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Village

The change isn’t quite official yet, but it will be soon.  What we’ve done, is approved a list of makes & models that can be pre-approved by the city staff, if they determine that repair of the existing windows is not practicable.
The staff knows that it will have to keep up with model changes, etc., over time.  The  Commission always reviews and signs off on these “staff approvals”, so there’s a measure of control against the staff approving something that shouldn’t be approved, though the city staff does an excellent job and doesn’t make the mistake of approving something we wouldn’t approve very often. They do a good job of erring on the side of caution.  We have a similar list of pre-approved wood windows, but we doubt whether very many residents will want to use it after the new standard goes into effect.

If someone wants to install a replacement window that isn’t on the pre-approved list, they must go through the regular process and get approval from the Commission.

I don’t have a readily available digital version of the pre-approved windows, but will post it to the list if anyone is interested.  I suspect that it will be added to the city’s web site, when the new standards are finalized.

I imagine that, at some time, the MVCMA will have to consider whether to take similar action, though I regret that this seems like it might be necessary, even though there are a few craftsmen who will still make good, solid hardwood windows. I’m hoping to live long enough not to have to replace the ones on our cottage.


Jeff Ferriell
-
Jeffrey T. Ferriell
Geraldine W Howell Professor of Law
Capital University Law School
303 E. Broad St.
Columbus, OH 43215
jferriell at law.capital.edu<mailto:jferriell at law.capital.edu>
614.236.6683 (office)
614.444.3994 (home)

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From: MassHistPres <masshistpres-bounces at cs.umb.edu> On Behalf Of jworden at swwalaw.com
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 12:42 PM
To: jade at heartwoodrestoration.com; copperandslate at gmail.com; nlouisedole at gmail.com
Cc: masshistpres at cs.umb.edu
Subject: [MassHistPres] replacement windows


In Arlington, we require that applicants obtain information from a restoration window company before allowing substitute windows, using all the arguments that have been presented in this chain.  W e specifically do not allow an aluminum or vinyl clad windows.  In some rare basement situations, we have allowed composite windows because of the rot problem.

John Worden

Arlington HDC



------- Original Message -------
From : heartwood[mailto:jade at heartwoodrestoration.com]
Sent : 3/17/2018 7:55:07 PM
To : copperandslate at gmail.com<mailto:copperandslate at gmail.com>; nlouisedole at gmail.com<mailto:nlouisedole at gmail.com>
Cc : masshistpres at cs.umb.edu<mailto:masshistpres at cs.umb.edu>
Subject : RE: Re: [MassHistPres] replacement windows
I am in agreement with the feedback that has been offered thus far...
we in the window restoration trade have our work cut out for us as we
are not equipped with deep pockets for marketing our superior product
and counter the hyperbole of the window replacement salesman...

at one ‘historic’ trade show years ago, pella windows was set up next to
my booth...they had a full sized sample window on one side of their area
and a sign that stated ‘you will never see finger jointed wood in our product’ on
the other...and there it was, clear as a knot, a finger jointed frame clad with polyvinyl
chloride (vinyl)!  sure, once the window was installed the homeowner couldn’t
‘see’ the finger jointed wood but it was there...we’ve all seen the foggy double pane
glass in newer windows, where wonderful old wood windows once graced the
building not 25 years prior...

windows are such an essential character of an old home...they exist for generations
with grace and utility...keep your business local and hire a craftsperson who can make
your windows energy efficient and ready for another century of use with not so regular
maintenance...

nancy, I understand this can be a challenging position for historic commissions when a
homeowner has drunk the replacement kool-aid...we need to continue educating folks
about the long term costs of replacement windows...

https://www.forthepeople.com/class-action-lawyers/pella-windows-lawsuit/<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https://www.forthepeople.com/class-action-lawyers/pella-windows-lawsuit/&c=E,1,eWTkfPgqLbNO0a8ey-bZLt7GLdljc8nncQsavhi4KOT38VsjtiVWSXW2miPV58PvXQH6A4O0iqWEgJeokM0sd1HYwupahtvYHpdpsO8X1ek4OPgsCLIJSqBl4A,,&typo=1>
https://www.bobvila.com/posts/21056-rotting-mw-windows?page=1<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https://www.bobvila.com/posts/21056-rotting-mw-windows%3fpage%3d1&c=E,1,4PAWvq-f9sQLFdJnqr7QtXRpD4FkpN9q_8JMmKEt0br3wDTEqgRUl0GfmCOebDWPNM2RDZDStHDfeZCWSJAiQTs0UvgMYEt_lyYVM-_SkPAcKbl-aMuGqw,,&typo=1>
https://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/stories/2010/03/22/daily46.html

jade mortimer
heartwood window restoration
po box 114 1605 mohawk trail
charlemont, ma 01339
413-625-8680

From: Garrett Laws<mailto:copperandslate at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2018 5:57 PM
To: Nancy Dole<mailto:nlouisedole at gmail.com>
Cc: masshistpres at cs.umb.edu<mailto:masshistpres at cs.umb.edu>
Subject: Re: [MassHistPres] replacement windows

Nancy,

This is an age old problem and I’d say a large issue (not always addressed) is that manufacturers regularly change their model numbers etc. The other pressing issue is that there’s a larger lobby for the replacement window industry than the rebuild and add storms...

If the windows are built from old growth lumber, the house will never get that back again.

Distributing a “list” of approved manufacturers is essentially rubber stamping the potential removal of all historic windows in the town, I’d be very careful with that approach.

Garrett Laws
Copper & Slate Co
Waltham, ma

On Thursday, March 15, 2018, Nancy Dole <nlouisedole at gmail.com<mailto:nlouisedole at gmail.com>> wrote:
We need to provide owners with a list of replacement windows that we would consider suitable.

Plymouth HDC has a list, which I have. They have a list of acceptable windows for properties they feel have great historic significance, and another list for properties that they think do not have historic significance.

Could anyone forward me a list if your district has one, or tell me what you have approved?

People in our district are more and more often requesting permission to replace existing wooden windows with aluminum clad or vinyl windows that are energy efficient. We are deciding as they come to us on a case by case basis, and its difficult for everyone involved. The applicant has no idea what we will accept, our only guideline is we prefer wooden windows and repairing existing windows. But that is not what  need to know, since for the most part they want to switch to modern materials etc. they do not want the wood windows.

Other owners are not aware we might ok alum clad etc, and so they don't apply for them. We need to address this in a responsible way.

Thanks,
Nancy Dole
WTHDC




--

Cheers,
Garrett Laws

The Copper & Slate Company, Inc.
Fine Roofing and Exterior Finish Carpentry
238 Calvary Street,
Waltham, MA 02453
Office: (781) 893-1916
LEAD FREE SINCE 2008

Work we do:

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipP25cjZU2PWmMSCvOwtzV-eNvpIKsod3KMlgk-lQjkxQX0vvAtOaHR-cPAJhjBJIA?key=X1ZWZENYQV9XdHlydjZwZWZYdlZnVEVTSkdmQk5B<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipP25cjZU2PWmMSCvOwtzV-eNvpIKsod3KMlgk-lQjkxQX0vvAtOaHR-cPAJhjBJIA%3fkey%3dX1ZWZENYQV9XdHlydjZwZWZYdlZnVEVTSkdmQk5B&c=E,1,iZftdzgw5yEFlvgIr29Xv-nIrKrErnmxfcTrqROyRfl_4C3gglrh9S3TvCSoDJ8qwny6ubq5HVdkC2swwGAD_UmilEjdQquwM6H1-JZiEaCY0_NJb6O3ODd5Ug,,&typo=1>

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Where we've worked over the years:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=206210316541901083869.00049065ef8543e1ef9c3&ll=42.40115,-71.126862&spn=0.125241,0.289421&t=h&z=12<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http://maps.google.com/maps/ms%3fie%3dUTF8%26hl%3den%26msa%3d0%26msid%3d206210316541901083869.00049065ef8543e1ef9c3%26ll%3d42.40115,-71.126862%26spn%3d0.125241,0.289421%26t%3dh%26z%3d12&c=E,1,M3fIkoZ3wWmF-XTIyiPREWdqvNJkZBi_cwH_KRJ6_rW59pGo2MV8Kffz05h0bUEN4_mbMmyUzHyT5T9x9y3E4hHaU2_qhAND-axH5jqW&typo=1>

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